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Thu, Sep 17, 2009

[Icon][Icon]Is it Slashdot.. or America?

• Post categories: Omni, Rant, My Life

It's been a long time since I've commented on Slashdot stories. Since I started following Ars, Slashdot has become alarmingly redundant. But in the last couple months, whilst I've been over in America, I've broken my silence and commented on a couple of Slashdot stories.

The first was about cell phones, the second is a recent story about libel. In both cases, arguments have been made by American /.ers that the American way of doing things is the best. In both cases, the logic has seemed completely topsy-turvy.

The first is about cell phone pricing. In America, calling a cell phone costs the same as a normal phone call. In Europe, it is more expensive. The reason calls are cheaper in America is that the owner of the cell phone gets charged to receive calls.

As the current owner of a cheap American cell phone, I find this an incredibly annoying system. I get nuisance calls most days. I've burned through the $15 credit the phone came with, despite having made maybe three phone calls, just because I get so many junk calls that they've wiped out my balance.

This, I was told on /., is a good thing: "I like being able to call any phone for the same cost"

My logic, however, is this: If I call somebody, it is a given that I want to talk to them. If somebody calls me, it *isn't* a given that *I* want to talk to *them*.

So the European system of saying that whoever dials the number pays for the call is, to me, the best: I don't want to subsidise the cost of the calls that I don't want to receive.

The second one, the libel one, arose from a criticism in the NY Times of the British libel system: "in English libel cases, the burden of proof is effectively on the defendant. In other words, the defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove it is true."

Damn right, in my book: If you make an accusation, you should have to be able to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

e.g. A calls B a pedophile. B sues A for libel.

American system places the burden of proof on B: He must prove that A committed libel. To do this, he must prove that he isn't a pedophile.

British system places the burden of proof on A: He claimed that B was a pedophile, he either has to justify his words or he's guilty.

Personally, I think the British system is the one I'd want to live in. True, it means that when the matter comes to the court, when B sues A for libel, you could argue it effectively means that A is guilty until proven innocent. But that's not really the case: B has to prove A has said something potentially-libellous. Then the burden moves to A, to prove that what he said was justified. At the end of the day, B's accusation against A hinges entirely upon the veracity of A's accusation against B and the American system ignores that.

What's more, you can't prove a negative: That's a logical absolute. That's why science hasn't eradicated religion: You can't prove God's lack of existence.

So in America, tabloid journalists can say whatever the hell they want about celebrities (and they do!) safe in the knowledge that unless the celebrity can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whatever is said about them is false, they can't be held guilty of defamation. And such proof is difficult to impossible to provide.

In England, if a journalist says something about a celebrity, he'd damn well better be able to back it up, or he's going down. And good job, too, if you ask me.

So both situations, we have something where I quite honestly can't see how anyone can argue that the American Way is the better of the two. But both times, I've been flatly told that it is.

So I'm curious.. is this the way Americans in general think, or is it just Slashdot trolls biasing the perception?

4 comments

Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
As an Indian, I am fully in support of English law. It is more logical, has a long history of development and is historically backed by actual judgements (case law/precedents) rather than statutes by law-makers.

I also agree with you. From the point of law, the accuser has to prove his allegations. It's a principle of natural justice.

Internet geeks make idiot lawyers. I am an exception because I am a law student.
18/09/09 @ 03:34
Kaotik4266
Comment from: Kaotik4266 [Visitor]
I've never really understood the validity of a "guilty until proven innocent" system (I know your point was about libel, but this is just in general). For one thing, as you say, it's more or less impossible to definitively prove a negative and for another, it seems like it would just end up putting a lot of innocent people in jail and be very easy to abuse (unless there's safeguards? I wouldn't know). Perhaps an "innocent until proven guilty" system lets some of the guilty go free due to lack of evidence, but it at least doesn't punish the innocent as frequently. (Or, at least, one would hope not...)

This also brings to mind a case from 2005 where an Australian woman called Schapelle Corby was arrested in Indonesia for drug smuggling. In the Indonesian legal system, you're guilty until proven innocent. There was a lot of controversy about the case and some very shoddy handling of evidence by the prosecution but she ended up being convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison because she couldn't prove her innocence. It was a big media circus in Australia, in large part because she probably wouldn't have been convicted by Australian law with the evidence given. For the record, I have no personal opinion on this case as I don't know enough about it beyond what was in the media (and we all know the media would never lie to us! XP) but it does seem to indicate the limitations of a "guilty until proven innocent" judicial system.

Just my 2c
18/09/09 @ 13:26
Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
Just to clear confusion, in defamation cases, the following theory is followed:

1. A sues B for libel/slander.
2. B either admits publication or not. If B admits publication, the onus is on B to either (a) Justify or (b) Claim privilege
3. If the court finds that the material published is defamatory, then it is up to B to prove his assertion.
4. A only has to prove that B has published the material and the material is defamatory.

So it's quite simple really. Even though A is the plaintiff and B is the defendant, once B has admitted publication or it is shown that B is responsible for publication of defamatory material against A, then B has to either justify the publication by proving it is true or rely on privilege (that is he had the right or duty to publish the said material under those circumstances.

So it's not really guilty until proven innocent for the defendant here. Rather it's the plaintiff who is defending his/her reputation against B's assertions if B has really published the material.
18/09/09 @ 16:09
Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
I must add that the above is only for civil lawsuits/private litigation under the head of tortious liability.

Criminal defamation is a totally different subject and many countries also have laws for criminal defamation.
18/09/09 @ 16:11

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