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Thu, Sep 17, 2009

[Icon][Icon]Is it Slashdot.. or America?

• Post categories: Omni, Rant, My Life

It's been a long time since I've commented on Slashdot stories. Since I started following Ars, Slashdot has become alarmingly redundant. But in the last couple months, whilst I've been over in America, I've broken my silence and commented on a couple of Slashdot stories.

The first was about cell phones, the second is a recent story about libel. In both cases, arguments have been made by American /.ers that the American way of doing things is the best. In both cases, the logic has seemed completely topsy-turvy.

The first is about cell phone pricing. In America, calling a cell phone costs the same as a normal phone call. In Europe, it is more expensive. The reason calls are cheaper in America is that the owner of the cell phone gets charged to receive calls.

As the current owner of a cheap American cell phone, I find this an incredibly annoying system. I get nuisance calls most days. I've burned through the $15 credit the phone came with, despite having made maybe three phone calls, just because I get so many junk calls that they've wiped out my balance.

This, I was told on /., is a good thing: "I like being able to call any phone for the same cost"

My logic, however, is this: If I call somebody, it is a given that I want to talk to them. If somebody calls me, it *isn't* a given that *I* want to talk to *them*.

So the European system of saying that whoever dials the number pays for the call is, to me, the best: I don't want to subsidise the cost of the calls that I don't want to receive.

The second one, the libel one, arose from a criticism in the NY Times of the British libel system: "in English libel cases, the burden of proof is effectively on the defendant. In other words, the defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove it is true."

Damn right, in my book: If you make an accusation, you should have to be able to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

e.g. A calls B a pedophile. B sues A for libel.

American system places the burden of proof on B: He must prove that A committed libel. To do this, he must prove that he isn't a pedophile.

British system places the burden of proof on A: He claimed that B was a pedophile, he either has to justify his words or he's guilty.

Personally, I think the British system is the one I'd want to live in. True, it means that when the matter comes to the court, when B sues A for libel, you could argue it effectively means that A is guilty until proven innocent. But that's not really the case: B has to prove A has said something potentially-libellous. Then the burden moves to A, to prove that what he said was justified. At the end of the day, B's accusation against A hinges entirely upon the veracity of A's accusation against B and the American system ignores that.

What's more, you can't prove a negative: That's a logical absolute. That's why science hasn't eradicated religion: You can't prove God's lack of existence.

So in America, tabloid journalists can say whatever the hell they want about celebrities (and they do!) safe in the knowledge that unless the celebrity can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whatever is said about them is false, they can't be held guilty of defamation. And such proof is difficult to impossible to provide.

In England, if a journalist says something about a celebrity, he'd damn well better be able to back it up, or he's going down. And good job, too, if you ask me.

So both situations, we have something where I quite honestly can't see how anyone can argue that the American Way is the better of the two. But both times, I've been flatly told that it is.

So I'm curious.. is this the way Americans in general think, or is it just Slashdot trolls biasing the perception?

4 comments

Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
As an Indian, I am fully in support of English law. It is more logical, has a long history of development and is historically backed by actual judgements (case law/precedents) rather than statutes by law-makers.

I also agree with you. From the point of law, the accuser has to prove his allegations. It's a principle of natural justice.

Internet geeks make idiot lawyers. I am an exception because I am a law student.
18/09/09 @ 03:34
Kaotik4266
Comment from: Kaotik4266 [Visitor]
I've never really understood the validity of a "guilty until proven innocent" system (I know your point was about libel, but this is just in general). For one thing, as you say, it's more or less impossible to definitively prove a negative and for another, it seems like it would just end up putting a lot of innocent people in jail and be very easy to abuse (unless there's safeguards? I wouldn't know). Perhaps an "innocent until proven guilty" system lets some of the guilty go free due to lack of evidence, but it at least doesn't punish the innocent as frequently. (Or, at least, one would hope not...)

This also brings to mind a case from 2005 where an Australian woman called Schapelle Corby was arrested in Indonesia for drug smuggling. In the Indonesian legal system, you're guilty until proven innocent. There was a lot of controversy about the case and some very shoddy handling of evidence by the prosecution but she ended up being convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison because she couldn't prove her innocence. It was a big media circus in Australia, in large part because she probably wouldn't have been convicted by Australian law with the evidence given. For the record, I have no personal opinion on this case as I don't know enough about it beyond what was in the media (and we all know the media would never lie to us! XP) but it does seem to indicate the limitations of a "guilty until proven innocent" judicial system.

Just my 2c
18/09/09 @ 13:26
Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
Just to clear confusion, in defamation cases, the following theory is followed:

1. A sues B for libel/slander.
2. B either admits publication or not. If B admits publication, the onus is on B to either (a) Justify or (b) Claim privilege
3. If the court finds that the material published is defamatory, then it is up to B to prove his assertion.
4. A only has to prove that B has published the material and the material is defamatory.

So it's quite simple really. Even though A is the plaintiff and B is the defendant, once B has admitted publication or it is shown that B is responsible for publication of defamatory material against A, then B has to either justify the publication by proving it is true or rely on privilege (that is he had the right or duty to publish the said material under those circumstances.

So it's not really guilty until proven innocent for the defendant here. Rather it's the plaintiff who is defending his/her reputation against B's assertions if B has really published the material.
18/09/09 @ 16:09
Hari
Comment from: Hari [Member] · http://harishankar.org/blog/
I must add that the above is only for civil lawsuits/private litigation under the head of tortious liability.

Criminal defamation is a totally different subject and many countries also have laws for criminal defamation.
18/09/09 @ 16:11

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I almost can't talk about it.

Really.

I'm so very hurt and embarrassed and humiliated and just awful right now.

I was told once, that you should never say something behind someone's back you wouldn't say to their face and here's a good example of why I wish everyone would think a little more before they spoke. Because sometimes you say something you never intend for someone to hear but they do.

And I did.

When I got Cary's disappointing email, I called my friend to let her know he'd emailed, and that I was bummed because it was clear from the email that things weren't going anywhere.

As we were talking, her husband called on the other line and I guess she mentioned that Cary had finally emailed me back because when she came back on the line with me she was laughing. "Well, that's funny, because when he told Cary that he'd given you his email and he hoped that was ok, I guess Cary asked him if you were a Cougar."

I didn't laugh.

I was stunned, actually.

The term, for those of you who don't know it or use it, refers to an older woman, usually in her 40s who is looking to sleep with a much younger man. Usually in his 20s. At best? A Cougar is Demi Moore dating and marrying the 15 year younger Ashton Kutcher. Or possibly Samantha from Sex in the City; an over-sexed almost lecherous older woman who scores a hot young model.

At worst, it's an over the hill, somewhat desperate woman who goes after younger men. Much younger men. A Cougar is tacky, slutty, all about the sex. Not respected.

So, not something you'd want to be called. Especially when you're nowhere near your 40s. And you're not going after men in their 20s.

I ended the call pretty quick and my friend immediately called me back apologizing.

"I'm sorry," she said. "Please don't take that the wrong way. I shouldn't have said anything. I happen to know Cary really liked an older woman and thinks Cougar is a good thing, so please don't be upset."

But upset is too light a term for how hurt I am.

You know how sometimes something quite little touches on what's a really deep insecurity for you and it becomes this huge thing? This devastation?

That's what this is for me.

See, I'm sensitive about my age. I've talked about it a little bit here, but I already feel like I missed out on getting a man when it was a good time for that, that I wish I'd met my husband in high school or University. That it's hard being single when your friends are getting married or already coupled. So I already am insecure about being single at my age. I'm already sensitive.

So to hear that a guy I thought was bright and interesting and intriguing, a guy who'd said we had chemistry thought I was not only older than him but significantly older than him really really hurts. Has devastated me.

Do I look that old? Do I look ten, fifteen years older than him?

I'm not. I'm maybe five years older than him, but do I look it? Act it? Where is this coming from? Didn't I leave his hotel room, so didn't I shut him down? Isn't he the one who told me I was hot? So, wasn't he the one who was interested in me? Since when did I become the older woman chasing him?

And putting the age thing aside, which is hard enough, is me emailing him enough of an act that it looks like I'm throwing myself at him? That I'm chasing him, trying to lure and capture him?

I am so so humiliated. I can't even begin to explain it.

I know that you, and any other friends I talk to about this will tell me flat out that this guy is a loser and a jerk and immature and wrong, but I'm not ready to go there yet.

I'm not ready for this to be about him because I'm still hurt and insecure and rocking from the shame of it all.

I'm cringing that someone I was wondering about a future with thinks I'm an oversexed, eager, whore of an older woman.

Imagine what he'd think if I'd actually slept with him. Or kissed him.

Imagine how humiliated I'd feel if I'd done that. I can't even think about it, it's so bad.

But for right now I'm just hurt. I'm hurt and having to remind myself over and over that I'm young and attractive and beautiful and smart and wonderful and amazing and all sorts of good things because the voices that like to tell me bad things about myself are having a field day right now. An absolute field day.

I know I'll be ok, that this will go away soon enough, and I'm hoping that this hurt and embarrassment will soon turn to anger and that I'll move on and forget this, but right now I'm not in a good place with it all.

It's shame on top of insecurity on top of disappointment on top of sadness on top of regret on top of humiliation and wanting to curl up and die and erase myself from having gone to the wedding, having met him and having ever thought any positive thoughts towards him at all.

And if I can tell you anything out of this, it's that it's not really necessary to pass on hurtful things to people. And that you really should listen to Bambi's mother and if you can't say anything nice, you shouldn't say anything at all.

Because it hurts.

And sometimes the hurt can go deep.

And sometimes it scars.

So right now I'm trying not to let myself get scarred, I'm just trying to hold it together. I'm trying not to be confused and embarrassed and ashamed and hurt.

But damn, I'm hurt.
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