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OneAndOneIs2

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Fri, Apr 29, 2011

[Icon][Icon]Votes

• Post categories: Omni, Rant, In The News

Continuing along with a second post relating to politics, there's this AV referendum coming up.

The AV, or Alternative Vote, proposal, is that instead of everybody just going along to the voting station and putting a cross next to their favourite candidate's name, they should instead be able to put numbers against ALL the candidates, putting them in order of preference.

To understand the proposed benefits of this system, let's imagine we have a vote for the following parties:

  • Fairly Sensible party
  • Reasonably Sensible party
  • Moderately Sensible party
  • Moronic Party

Now, the thing is, all the sensible voters can only pick one of the sensible candidates. So although we might have 3/4 of all the voters making a sensible choice, because their vote is split amongst three sensible candidates, there won't be an outright win for any one sensible candidate.

Worse, you might get, say, 30% of people voting for the moronic choice, 20% for the FSP, 22% for the RSP, and 28% for the MSP. And so even though 70% of the voters went for a sensible option, the dilution of the vote means that the moronic choice is the one with the most votes.

So that's bad. AV is proposed as the solution. It says that if no single candidate gets 50% or more, then the candidate with the lowest score is eliminated. And the people who voted for that candidate then get their SECOND choice. So, in the above scenario, the FSP get eliminated and so the new situation is:
Moronic: 30%
RSP: 32%
MSP: 38%

Still no 50% yet, but now the moronic party is the one that's eliminated. And so a sensible candidate gets in, and the world is saved by democracy.

So that's the theory. And I do like the idea of being able to express a preference for more than one single candidate. I do.

But I don't like AV. Because let's now invert the situation. Let's have:

  • Fairly Sensible party
  • Reasonably Sensible Party
  • Stupid party
  • Daft party
  • Moronic Party

And the results come in:
FSP: 30%
RSP: 30%
SP: 13%
DP: 13%
MP: 14%

And you can see the problem.

What the AV system does is take all the votes for the LEAST popular parties, and lump them all together. Sometimes, this will indeed mean that there are several good choices and the sensible votes get diluted.

But it also means that if you have several bad choices, their votes get counted repeatedly and lumped together. And the only people whose votes get counted more than once are the people who voted for the least-popular options

If we assume (Big assumption, I grant you) that most people will vote sensibly, then a system that gives more votes to the people who vote for the least-popular options means by definition that we're giving more votes to non-sensible people. It's all the wrong way round.

A system that, for example, awarded 10 points to a candidate who was your first choice, 8 points to your second, 6 to your third, and so on, I could get behind. Because then EVERYONE'S vote gets counted more than once.

So I like fundamental idea of AV, but I find the implementation to be the worst possible system that they could come up with.

So sadly, my vote for AV will be 'no'. Not because I think "First past the post" is the best system, but because it's just not quite as bad as AV is.

6 comments

Dad
Comment from: Dad [Visitor]
And if you can't be bothered to vote for more than one candidate, this "miserable compromise" doesn't work anyway!!
30/04/11 @ 09:00
Krazy Kitty
Comment from: Krazy Kitty [Visitor] · http://amrhaps.net/english
I left a somewhat lengthy comment with some links, so I'm assuming it's been eaten by the spam filter. If not, let me know.
30/04/11 @ 09:45
oneandoneis2
Comment from: oneandoneis2 [Member] · http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/
Sadly, my blog's antispam is very simple: Comments either show up instantly or they never will - there's no "Holding space" so it appears your comment got eaten. Sorry :(
30/04/11 @ 11:32
Krazy Kitty
Comment from: Krazy Kitty [Visitor] · http://amrhaps.net/english
No problem. Let's try this again:

There's a system called "majority judgment" that has been developed by French researchers and is currently under study (has been for years, actually; I'll probably die of old age before it's implemented).

Instead of ranking the candidates, you give them a "mention" (from "To be rejected" to "Excellent"). Then each candidate gets the best mention that got more than 50% of votes for itself or a better one. Here's an example, because I myself have a hard time understanding the sentence I wrote: if a candidate gets 5% Excellent, 10% Very Good, 30% Good, 15% Passable, 30% Insufficient, 10% Reject, then her "majority-mention" is Passable (which gathers 5+10+30+15=60% of opinions, while Good only gathers 5+10+30=45% of opinions).

So in your second example, chances are the daft, moronic and stupid parties would all get "Reject" (or "Insufficient") because the 60% of reasonable people would reject them.

And now you can look for the damn paper yourself! One of the authors is Rida Laraki and has it on his website.
01/05/11 @ 08:09
Alison
Comment from: Alison [Visitor] · http://creativehedgehog.com
Sounds like the Aussie system!

Let me explain how the count works.

So you've got 4 candidates (or 2, 3, 8, whatever, depending on how many candidates are standing for the seat. 4-5 is fairly standard.)

let's assume that we've got the candidates
Fred
Bill
Steve
Linus
(from now on I'm going to do the numbering horizontally instead of vertically to save space.)

you vote 1 2 3 4 or 3 4 2 1 or whatever.

So at the close of polls the officials break open the boxes and start sorting the votes into 5* piles.
those with 1 for Fred, 1 for Bill, 1 for Steve, 1 for Linus, and a pile for the votes that people voted 1 in each box, just 1 in one box, etc. (As long as voter intention is clear, the vote counts, though.) (in Australia you have to vote, so we tend to get a few dud ones.)
So, lets say that Fred got 43 votes, Bill got 28 votes, Steve got 54 votes, and Linus got 56 votes. Has Linus won? No, (well if it was large margin then probably yes.) So, now you go back through Fred and Bill's votes, looking for the number 2. If someone voted 1 for Bill but 2 for Steve, Steve gets that one. Usually you can tell by now, but you continue on. Perhaps someone wins the seat (well, polling booth) by a few votes, but on counting the second preferences, the other candidate gets ahead - theoretically because more people want them, they just liked this other small guy a bit better.

So, what if I just like voting for the party and don't want to think? Then I can pick up a how to vote card which will tell me the order to put the boxes in (2 1 4 3 or whatever). The two big parties (I guess Labour and Tories for you) would preference each other last. So you don't vote for Sensible 1, sensible 2, silly 3, silly 4- (and remember everyone has a different moron) you vote for major 1, next (hated) major 4, 2 silly 3 silly. So if you vote for Steve 2, Linus 1, (example) your second preference never gets seen, if your #1 candidate did well- but that's why you put them at #1!

Now, you lot don't vote for your upper house, do you! That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish when it comes to voting and ballots! (70 candidates! in fairness though they quickly brought in- I vote for these guys- and their preferences are my preferences.)

02/05/11 @ 11:08
oneandoneis2
Comment from: oneandoneis2 [Member] · http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/
@kk - I hadn't heard of that system. I rather like giving everyone a 'nix' vote so they can say "Definitely not THIS person" - would solve a LOT of problems, that..

@alison - Does indeed sound like the same system. I still don't like it. I *am* in favour of making voting mandatory though. But only if they ALSO make it so that the winner needs to have at least 50% of the vote or they don't get in - in other words, you can't get a leader that less than half the population approves of. I think that would make politics far more entertaining :)
03/05/11 @ 09:04

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